S8 Ep15: Regenerative Baking for Healthy Land and People with Molly Carney
That's the lesson of baking bread that you think you're in control and you're not. You're just a guide in the process. You're on the bread’s timeline.” —Molly Carney
Bread is a simple yet profound food that has sustained cultures for millennia. More than just a vehicle for nutrients, bread represents community, tradition, and comfort. Today, artisans continue this living tradition, honoring ancestral practices while innovating with modern techniques and heirloom ingredients, providing nourishment for both body and soul while keeping alive the memories and meanings embedded in this most humble of foods.
This week, Justine interviews Molly Carney to discuss the time-honored craft of artisanal bread baking and its impact on community health and sustainability. Molly Carney is the founder of Dirt Lady Bread, a small bakery in Tucson, Arizona that makes organic, sourdough, and fermented breads using locally grown ingredients. She started the bakery to connect people to high-quality, nutritious food through her artisanal breads.
Listen in as Justine and Molly talk about the importance of regenerative farming partnerships and efforts to educate customers about intuitive eating, how the quality of soil affects the quality of food, the challenges and rewards of running a values-aligned food business with a long-distance partner, and insights into the nutritional benefits of traditional fermentation methods as well as cultivating a culture that values artisanal food producers.
Connect with Molly:
Baker Molly Carney has been trained in naturally-leavened bread from James-Beard semi-finalist chef, Taylor Petrehn. Under Petrehn and Executive Chef Jake Dodd-Sloan, Carney learned the trade at “Kansas’ Top Bakery” (Food and Wine 2022) 1900 Barker Bakery and Cafe where she served as head baker.
In her recent move to Tucson, Carney noticed that local support is present and the demand is high; the market is nowhere near saturated. In this niche market, the demand is not being fully met. Carney created Dirt Lady Bread as a response to her community - clean-ingredient yummy bread for everybody!
Prior to baking, Carney was an organic farmer, growing heritage varieties that best benefited environmental and human health. Carney incorporated her deep understanding of place and farming practices with her MA in Sustainable Communities to develop a healthy and earth-conscious sourdough bread.
Episode Highlights:
02:26 Artisanal Bread-Making
07:09 Gluten-Free Bread and Gut Health
09:43 Integrating Regenerative Farming Practices
14:21 Seeking Partnerships for Business Growth
17:22 Involving the Community
Tweets:
Discover the ancient art of connecting people and communities through traditional foods. Tune in as @jreichman and Dirt Lady Bread Owner, Molly Carney discuss the challenges, rewards, and hopes of cultivating health through local food. #podcast #entrepreneurship #socialgood #inspiration #impactmatters #NextGenChef #EssentialIngredients #Season8 #DirtLadyBread
Inspirational Quotes:
04:25 “Having somebody in your life who is supportive and loving and also knows how to get down to business is exponentially better.” —Molly Carney
06:31 “Valuing organic and cold stone so it's very clean bread– and a lot of people prefer that highest level of quality.” —Molly Carney
10:51 “Regenerative is about our farming practices and how we treat each other and treat food as the center of our culture.” —Molly Carney
12:57 “Not everybody is so knowledgeable or in tune with the impacts of how their food is grown, how it's created, and how it makes them feel.” —Justine Reichman
13:08 “What scaling up would look like is getting more people baking this way.” —Molly Carney
15:35 “That's the lesson of baking bread that you think you're in control and you're not. You're just a guide in the process. You're on the bread’s timeline.” —Molly Carney
Transcriptions:
Justine Reichman: Good morning and welcome to Essential Ingredients. I'm your host, Justine Reichman. With me today is Molly Carney, the Founder of Dirt Lady Bread.
Welcome, Molly.
Molly Carney: Thank you, Justine, for having me.
Justine Reichman: So for those not familiar with Dirt Lady Bread, can you tell us a little bit about it?
Molly Carney: Absolutely. Dirt Lady Bread is a small bakery in Tucson, Arizona. We make all yeasted and sourdough, cold stone milled, hand mix polish bread. Basically the freshest, most rustic organic bread the way that we can.
Justine Reichman: What inspired you to bake bread?
Molly Carney: A little bit of my background, I did my masters in some food systems work and got really into farming, started managing farms. And really, my whole passion is just about food systems and how to connect people to really good food. And I stumbled upon this bakery in Kansas, 1900 Barker. Walking in, they were milling all their flour, fresh right on the table. And it was a catalyst turning point for me that flour is actually a fresh ingredient. It is a fresh crop. It's not this shelf stable, can last forever apocalypse food. So that really changed my whole perspective of baking in flour as a crop and got me into how to connect people and communities in our bodies through fresh stone brown bread.
Justine Reichman: Wow, that's amazing. Super interesting. Dirt Lady Bread right now, where are you?
Molly Carney: Tucson, Arizona. And this is our small cottage kitchen. We're transitioning into the bigger kitchen soon. Very exciting. But right now, it's just our little operation.
Justine Reichman: How long ago did you start out?
Molly Carney: The company started in May of last year. And we started selling at the Farmers Market in June and have grown. So we're very fresh.
Justine Reichman: That's not a very long time. How many Farmers Markets are you now in?
Molly Carney: We're now in two Farmers Markets. And we have some cafes and wholesale orders, and we do special events. But we're keeping it nice and easy right now. So we do about 100 or so loaves every weekend, like 50 rolls, 100 cookies, 25 baguettes.
Justine Reichman: During the week, what are you doing?
Molly Carney: I'm a baker full time. So my partner and I have structured our lives around this bakery. So we have a really beautiful balance of baking and playing. Enjoying the dessert.
Justine Reichman: I know that you mentioned that you have a partner. Tell me about your partner and how that came today.
Molly Carney: His name is Justin. He's a partner in our business and my life. He was a wildland firefighter, and that's sort of the beginning of being able to open our own business and start our own bakery. The work that he did, fighting fires in California, funded the beginning of my dream and my passion. So we work really well together. And he's extremely supportive.
Justine Reichman: So when he's working on this, it's seasonal because I happen to know somebody else. As I'm putting the pieces of the puzzle together here, it's a seasonal kind of roll. And then he's got time when he's not out fighting fires to do the baking in the business with you. Is that correct?
Molly Carney: Yeah. Their season is November through, the other way around like May through November. And so they're gone for like six months out of the year when they're fighting fire. He's stationed in Truckee, California, and I'm in Tucson. So it's quite the commute between the two.
Justine Reichman: So what's it like having a partner in life and a partner in your business? Let's start with doing business with somebody that's away for six months. How do you balance that?
“Having somebody in your life who is supportive and loving and also knows how to get down to business is exponentially better.” —Molly Carney
Molly Carney: So much more work on me when he's gone. So I have to scale down this past season when he was gone. I wasn't able to bake as much. I wasn't able to do back to back markets because I didn't have anyone who could work the market while I was baking. Like right now, he's working the market and I'm able to be here. So our skill was much smaller, and it was a lot more stressful. Having somebody in your life who is supportive and loving and also knows how to get down to business is about the best thing ever. So when he's here, it's exponentially better.
Justine Reichman: So now when he's away, because it's not a way for just a short time. Has there been any conversation about bringing on other people? Are you still too small to bring somebody else on to be able to assist you to continue that growth?
Molly Carney: Right now, the two of us, I don't think that he's going to go back for another season of fire which is going to allow us to expand and continue to grow. If he were going back, I would definitely need to hire somebody. There's no doubt about it because I'm very pleased with how much growth we've made, and how many people were able to feed in our community.
Justine Reichman: Molly, I'm wondering when you kicked off this business, is it the first time you're selling your own bread? Not that you're working for somebody else. What was that experience like for you? How did you know that you had something that was going to be well received, and the start of something really wonderful?
Molly Carney: I never really know. I guess I was showing up to the market with my loaves and hoping that it was going to go well. I received a lot of support from the other marketers. They're people who are selling and loving it, and giving me a lot of support and feedback, because Tucson is also very seasonal. So I started in the summer, and there is a much lower population because it's 113 degrees. And the first Farmers Market that I worked at was Oro Valley Farmers Market at steam pump ranch. So it's just this big dirt lot in the foothills of the Catalina Mountains. So it's very, very hot. But I just kept showing up with my bread and increased production more and more every time, taking the feedback from people and seeing what I could do to make something special. There are incredible bakers here in Tucson, but there are more people than there are bakers. So there's not necessarily like the market is saturated, there's plenty of room for a new bakery to come into town. And valuing organic and cold stone, the way that we do is we only use filtered water and organic flour. So it's very clean bread, and a lot of people prefer that highest level of quality.
Justine Reichman: You just mentioned that you had really positive feedback when you started to sell your bread. Are there any anecdotes that you can share from those folks early on that were really inspirational that created or gave you the strength to continue to go on knowing that this was something that people liked and wanted?
Molly Carney: That's sweet to think back on it. So the first thing is that it's delicious. And I can speak very confidently about that. And people love it and they share that. But the things that really matter to me, some of our customers are diabetic. I had this one guy who is tracking his blood sugar, the glycemic index and the spikes when he would eat our bread compared to other ones. And he would share with me that he had no glycemic spikes at all when he was eating our bread, and could track the way that it helped stabilize his blood sugar throughout the morning and balanced with his proteins. And so for me, hearing that in the way that it reacted into somebody's body was very encouraging that I'm on the right path doing something that is good for our guts, as well as tasting good.
Justine Reichman: So what in particular do you think contributed to that for him.
Molly Carney: I have it all written down, I call it my Gluten manifesto. When you're eating gluten, there's so much that can be highly inflammatory in our bodies, and can cause massive spikes. It really starts with the quality of the soil. The nutrition of the soil goes then right into, if there are pesticides, herbicides, glyphosate sprayed all over the crop, and then flour, most of it is enriched or bleached. And so the enrichment has high levels of myosin and other added additives that really can inflame it and bounce the gut. Then when it comes to baking with the cold stone milling, we're retaining the highest level of nutrition from the wheat germ. And then we're long fermenting all of our baked goods that's going to go ahead and start doing that pre digestion. So that's why sourdough and fermented foods are so important because it eats the sugar before it comes into your body. And so the yeast, the wild yeast is doing the work that otherwise you would get. So it's very easy to digest, and it's more stable and right through the metabolic process.
Justine Reichman: That's amazing. I'm gluten intolerant so I'd love to try it myself. I've had different experiences eating sourdough and even eating gluten out of the country because they say there's actually less gluten when you're buying your pastries or whatever in France or wherever. For me, that resonates because I like a little piece of toast with some salad on top or avocado just dipping it in olive oil or anything with butter. Since you've had such success with this, and you're mindful about the gut, and you're mindful about gluten, using this process, are you looking to make any additional products?
Molly Carney: Yes. We're working with a farm called Oatman Farms. They're the first certified regenerative farm in the southwest, certified regenerative organic.
Justine Reichman: Before you go on, tell us what regenerative means to you. It's a hot topic, and everybody seems to have a little bit of a different depth, so I'd love to hear from you.
Molly Carney: So regenerative to me is a combination of the way that we treat the planet and then the way with our direct practices, and then the way that the planet can treat us and we can continue with community and growth. So if we're doing regenerative farming practices, it's not until rotational grazing. All these amazing no chemical additives, or herbicides, or pesticides, it's all these really amazing farming practices that yields the highest nutrient dense food with the highest level of microbial activity in the soil. And then right on top of that, it's labor, and how we treat farmers, and how we treat bakers, and how we treat people who are in the food system and valuing their work the way that it should be valued. So I think regenerative is about our farming practices and how we treat each other, and treat food as the center of our culture.
Justine Reichman: And how do you see that's going to impact the future of food?
Molly Carney: Hopefully, we can get to a place where we're treating farming with the respect and value that it should be. I think our farmers are a keystone species, culturally speaking, right? They're the most important to us to continue to go on. And less than 1%, I think of Americans, are farmers. And so it's a really crazy, sad, rapid decline. And so if we could shift our culture to be valuing farmers and valuing artisanal makers with food as the epicenter that could bloom into an amazing paradigm shift of our health. Crazy health outcomes.
“Not everybody is so knowledgeable or in tune with the impacts of how their food is grown, how it's created, and how it makes them feel.” —Justine Reichman
Justine Reichman: Maybe even act to mitigate certain diseases that we might encounter because there'll be less inflammation. I'm not a doctor, but that's just sort of where my head goes to it. So absolutely, when we think about this, not everybody is so knowledgeable or in tune with the impacts of how their food is grown and when it's created to how it makes them feel. So what is the most important thing you could share about what you create is to your clients so they can make a healthier, more informed choice, and choose yours?
Molly Carney: I think intuitive eating is incredibly important. And as you're paying attention to how it goes down, and how it feels, you don't need to have a scientific study to back up what you're feeling in your body. You can tap in, tune in and get in touch with your true knowing. And so when you're eating whole organic raw foods and artisanal foods that are made with a lot of love and slow foods, you can tap into your body and see how it feels, how you feel. You don't need anything else to do that.
Justine Reichman: No, I agree. So what are you most hopeful for as you're building this healthy bread empire?
Molly Carney: I think continuing, of course, first to feed our community and to give people organic clean options. And the second would be education. I think that for me, what scaling up would look like is getting more people baking this way. So yes, I could bust out 400 loaves a day, but I would rather, each neighborhood had somebody who has committed to and loves baking organic fermented bread.
Justine Reichman: So do you see your role to be the impetus for that, to be the person that goes out to inspire?
Molly Carney: A piece of the puzzle, for sure. They're fantastic bakers in Tucson. Barrio Bread is sort of our grandfather of bread here in Tucson, and he's doing an incredible job encouraging the use of local and heritage grains. So continuing on with what people have done before me, Tucson is a really special place. I think farming here for 4000 years. It goes back as far as right under a mountain, so there's a ton of commitment.
Justine Reichman: So what role does research play in this for you in terms of trying to build out a better for you Bread that's good for your gut, makes you feel better, and has good ingredients? Do you rely on research? Do you conduct your own research?
Molly Carney: Both. So I read a lot about what's coming. There are amazing studies that I think that I'm gonna mess it up. But like the Sourdough Institute in London, they're doing studies on how sourdough and fermented breads help balance women's hormones through their menstrual cycle, which is incredible. And I love learning about that, and about all the ways that we can use fermented foods to improve our health and create better outcomes. But also, baking is just a big experiment. It's a ton of research. There's a random cloudy day or rainy day here, and the humidity coming into the kitchen is going to completely change my bread. And so every day, it's like, I think I know what I'm doing. But I also don't know anything at all.
Justine Reichman: I think we all have a little bit better that we're not quite sure. We just are a little bit. We lack a little confidence sometimes because we're like, is this really happening? How do we do this? Why is this working? All those things.
“That's the lesson of baking bread that you think you're in control and you're not. You're just a guide in the process. You're on the bread’s timeline. - Molly Carney”
Molly Carney: Absolutely. So I think that's the lesson of baking bread that you think you're in control, and you're not. You're just a guide in the process. You're on the bread timeline. It's very humbling.
Justine Reichman: I think so too. And I love the idea, because I think that house plays a really big role. And there's a lot of people that can eat bread and understand the fermentation process, and the way that you're doing cold stone, etcetera, really is going to open up doors for people that might not otherwise have been able to eat it.
Molly Carney: Absolutely. And so many people are telling, this is my anecdotal research that folks at the Farmers Market come and say that their doctor has told them to stop eating gluten altogether. I'm like, obviously, I'm not a doctor. But it makes me think, what is that? Is it the quality of gluten that's available on the market? And it's so inflammatory that it's so much better to stay away from it. Or is it a root allergy that we need to think about? So I think that it's providing the paradigm shift of providing enough options, information and access so that people can make a choice, and see if it actually can work for their bodies.
Justine Reichman: Yeah, I think so. I think that there are people that get blood tests, and they're celiac. And I think there is a lot of truth to gluten being different and tolerated in different ways, depending on how and what the process involves. That being said, I'm curious, you started this not too long ago. You and your partner, both in life and in business, and money. Was it a choice to just be self funded? What was the rationale behind wanting to be self funded versus going to get to a kickstarter or something?
Molly Carney: If you asked us, and this would be his favorite question, the ethos of working really hard and starting something between the two of us that we could build, share and create a family from and a life from, it was a bit of a bootstrap. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps situation and business model. But we're at the point with enough growth and stability that we're able to provide for ourselves with baking bread. And so now, we're at the stage where we think that it would be a good investment for other people, or for our community to get involved in. But we had to make sure that we could do it, and that we wanted to do it. And we love to do it before we get anybody else involved.
Justine Reichman: What does that look like when you go to get other people involved? What does that look like for you?
Molly Carney: We're in negotiations for a storefront, which is going to be amazing and such a fun epicenter for the community, but also so much more investment. And so we're looking, putting our feelers out there to see who is in line with our vision, and how can we move forward in a collaborative way?
Justine Reichman: Awesome. So what would be your perfect partnership to create your bread going forward?
Molly Carney: It's called the Dry Coop here in Tucson. It's a regenerative based cooperative. So we would love to join the cooperative and build from the resources of these other amazing business people who are making it happen in the regenerative food sphere to continue making really high quality breads and using more regenerative flour. So I think building out partnerships and making sure that we're working really, really closely with our farmers, and talking about the crops that are being grown. So I think more partnerships than financial, but I do believe that the finances will bloom from that.
Justine Reichman: I hope it does for you. I can't wait to try your bread. And for those that are in the Tucson area, where can they grab your bread?
Molly Carney: You can find us at the Oro Valley Farmers Market at Steam Pump Ranch on Saturday mornings, and the Rillito Park Farmers Market on Sunday mornings.
Justine Reichman: And will we see you in stores anytime soon? Or online?
Molly Carney: Probably not. You'll have to come see me.
Justine Reichman: I was just in Arizona, but I was in Phoenix so I didn't quite make it there on the next trip. It was so great chatting with you, I really love learning about your bread company and your journey. We'll make sure to include those places in our show notes, and we'd love to continue to follow your story along and any information that you can share on the process. We'd love to include that as a follow up for our newsletter, etcetera, so we can just share the information with people. Like you said, provide education.
Molly Carney: Amazing. I love that. I love that so much. Thank you for having me and for this conversation, I appreciate what you're doing for the food system.
Justine Reichman: Oh, thank you, Molly.
