S7 Ep17: Leading with Heart and Mind— Understanding Unconscious Patterns to Transform Leadership Presence with Marika Messager
“It's a business, but more than anything, it's a community, and it's a movement.” —Marika Messager
The level of consciousness profoundly shapes a leader’s effectiveness. Self-awareness of one's blindspots, biases, and triggers is key to leading with wisdom, empathy, and care for all people affected by decisions. This approach benefits every member of the company as it centers around long-term well-being over temporary gains.
In this episode, Justine is joined by Marika Messager, a researcher and teacher of consciousness, and Founder of Conscious Leadership, an organization that helps develop conscious leaders capable of creating systemic change.
Tune in as Justine and Marika explore how unconscious biases, emotional triggers, and disconnect from one's emotions can negatively impact leadership, tools for cultivating presence, ways to create a more inclusive culture, and strategies for managing energy states.
Connect with Marika:
Marika Messager is the founder of Conscious Leadership, an organization dedicated to researching unconscious behaviors and toxic patterns. Through her work, Marika helps individuals and organizations uncover the root causes of unhealthy behaviors and transform themselves. With years of experience, she guides her clients on their journey of self-awareness and emotional mastery to become conscious leaders. Marika is passionate about creating systemic change by developing healthy behaviors in individuals, families, and professional circles.
Episode Highlights:
00:56 The Connection Between Consciousness and Leadership
03:07 Leadership Core Values
09:18 Energy Management and Emotional Regulation in Business
16:19 The Importance of Cultural Competence
19:11 Conscious Leadership and Inclusion
Tweets:
Lead with purpose beyond profits. Join the conversation as @jreichman and Conscious Leadership Founder, Marika Messager discuss how leaders create a more inclusive culture where every perspective propels positive change. #podcast #entrepreneurship #socialgood #inspiration #impactmatters #NextGenChef #EssentialIngredients #Season7 #ConsciousLeadership #self-awareness #emotionalintelligence #energyregulation #inclusion #personalgrowth #leadershipdevelopment
Inspirational Quotes:
01:16 “We don't have control over our choices or our reactions because they come from a program that has been instilled into us by our parents, our society, our culture, our religion. Consciousness is unpeeling all these layers so that we can find what is true and what is healthy.” —Marika Messager
02:49 “If you can create change, then you can create change systematically. But it’s got to start somewhere.” —Justine Reichman
06:15 “We all have that toxicity within us because our system is unhealthy. So it's really the acceptance of that and the willingness to look within ourselves.” —Marika Messager
07:58 “We spend so much of our life in relationships, whether it's work or personal, that to lose joy seems quite sad.” —Justine Reichman
10:33 “Clarity is knowing how you function best, but also what you want and how you're going to go about it.” —Marika Messager
10:44 “Presence is a lot about emotional intelligence, but how to show up with the presence that you need and the best presence you can have.” —Marika Messager
11:00 “Creation is the place where we execute what we know to be true with the appropriate emotional presence.” —Marika Messager
13:36 “When you're with your team, you want to be mindful of how you communicate that frustration.” —Justine Reichman
17:26 “What does it mean to know yourself? It means to accept yourself.” —Marika Messager
22:33 “It's a business, but more than anything, it's a community, and it's a movement.” —Marika Messager
Transcriptions:
Justine Reichman: Good morning, good afternoon, and welcome to Essential Ingredients. I'm your host, Justine Reichman. With me today is Marika Messager, the founder of consciousleadership.org.
Welcome, Marika.
Marika Messager: Thank you, Justine. I'm very happy to be with you today.
Justine Reichman: Likewise. I'm super excited to have this conversation and learn a little bit about what you teach. And before we get started, I'd love for you to just explain to the people viewing and listening what it means when you say I'm a teacher of consciousness.
“We don't have control over our choices or our reactions because they come from a program that has been instilled into us by our parents, our society, our culture, our religion. Consciousness is unpeeling all these layers so that we can find what is true and what is healthy.” —Marika Messager
Marika Messager: Sure. It's a question that a lot of people do ask. I'm a researcher and a teacher of consciousness. And what I mean by that is really researching all the ways in which we are not conscious in other ways, all the ways in which we are being operated by our unconscious mind. So we don't really have control over our choices or our reactions because they do come from a program that has been instilled into us by our parents, our society, our culture, our religion. So consciousness is really unpeeling all these layers so that we can find what is true and what is healthy. Researching consciousness really means researching all the unhealthy distorted or toxic behaviors that we display as individuals, or organisations, or as a system understanding what's the root cause of those behaviors, and where do they come from. Once we are conscious of them, we have the ability to transform ourselves, which is the leadership bit so that we actually display healthy behaviors with our families, with our friends, in our professional sight circles. And eventually, the more conscious a leader you become, the more you become interested in creating systemic change and taking part in actually creating a system that is healthier for all of us.
Justine Reichman: That sounds amazing. I want to do this, everyone should want to do this because it's very positive and allows us to make mindful choices, what we're doing and understand why we're doing them to create change based on what we learned. And from what you're saying, on a personal and professional level, it's really important to understand what you're doing and the impact it's having. Because if you can create change, then you can create change. As you said, systemically, but it's got to start somewhere. So with that in mind, as the founder of a company, we're talking to other founders, we're talking to other leaders in the industry, where do they start this journey?
Marika Messager: Well, actually, especially if you're a founder and an entrepreneur, that dimension of self leadership. By the way, we don't need a title to display leadership. But that element of self leadership, which is one of the dimensions of conscious leadership, is crucial because you want to be able to be at your best mentally, emotionally, physically, and even spiritually because your company is you. So if you're not functioning at your best, your company is not performing at its best. So it's even more crucial when you are an entrepreneur. And where do you start? Well, I would say to start with looking at all the behaviors that you're not so proud of. All those bits and pieces when you're acting or speaking a certain way, or even thinking of a certain way that you're not feeling great about yourself. And start to unpack. Can I identify some patterns? Do I know myself to behave this way in different situations? And again, we want to be holistic. So it can be at work, in our social circles, in our intimate circles. Start to see, okay, when this happens, I always respond. I mean, it's more reaction when it's unconscious responses, a conscious approach, but I always react this way. And this sequence of events usually happens in either difficult conversation. I go into freeze mode, and I become silent. I can't express myself, and we can't find resolution. Start with those patterns, and really start to dig deeper. First into the reflection, is there a better way? Is that the most efficient way? And is there a better way? What would be that different way? Simply start to explore different ways of being, relating and working. That's quite the surface level. Then you go deeper inside of yourself and you understand what created that pattern. What's the root cause of it? How can you actually transform it?
Justine Reichman: Are there any things that you see that come up consistently among your clients that you work with?
Marika Messager: Yeah. I would say, for a lot of senior executives in the corporate world, there is very often a disconnect between the head and the heart. So there is this mask that we wear a lot were we have to show up in a certain way, we have to not show emotions. And in high flying environments, this is even more amplified. What happens is that a lot of people have learned to disconnect themselves from their emotions or to numb their emotions. And ultimately, they reach a point where they don't feel anything anymore. They don't really feel joy. They don't feel that they get the emotions, but they don't feel positive emotions either. So this is something that we see happening quite often. And this is the birthplace of starting to dig into emotional intelligence. What we see a lot as well is there is a spectrum when it comes to toxicity. We all have that toxicity within us because our system is unhealthy. Acceptance of that and the willingness to look within ourselves. But we have the people on the lower end of the narcissistic spectrum who have a tendency to be empath, and that can translate into codependent behaviors when you want to people please, you want to be liked, you are looking for outside validation so you might find yourself having trouble saying no, you might find yourself and meshed into unhealthy relationships, you might find yourself struggling to have boundaries or to place boundaries, and you might find yourself putting your needs last. And then we have people who are higher on the narcissistic spectrum. And those people can display behaviors that are also toxic on the higher end of the spectrum, which can involve dishonesty, power games, intimidation, domination, manipulation, and those translate into loads of different behaviors. Those people win most of the time, play the tyrant when it comes to conflict. So it's very difficult to have conversations with them, it's very difficult to share your perspective with them. So those are the two polarities, and then we have a lot in the middle.
“We spend so much of our life in relationships, whether it's work or personal, that to lose joy seems quite sad.” —Justine Reichman
Justine Reichman: Talking about joy where they can't feel joy, they don't feel pleased with anything, nothing gets them excited. What would you recommend to these people as tools or things to have in their toolkit, so to speak, to be able to incorporate joy and feel joy? Because we spend so much of our life in relationships, whether it's work or personal, to lose joy seems really quite sad.
Marika Messager: As always with consciousness work, there are some tools for every level of that that you can work on. So it's difficult to just share some tools like that. But what I would say is that when you are finding yourself in that situation, most of the time, you have shut your heart down. So first, understanding that the heart is a muscle and it needs to be practiced, it needs to be exercised. And so if we block ourselves from feeling negative emotions, we're going to block ourselves from feeling positive emotions. So the first step is really to give ourselves permission to feel again, which is where a lot of people are like, oh, my god, am I gonna feel really bad emotions all at once? And most likely, you won't. I've never seen that. You will start to feel sadness, you will start to feel anger, you will start to feel potentially shame, guilt or fear. And it's really that willingness to stay with the devotions when the toolbox appeals. Because with each emotion, each individual is going to have different needs in how to support themselves through feeling these emotions, and really see what the emotions are teaching us. What's the lesson? What needs to change? Do I need to have a conversation? Do I need to say something? Do I need to have a specific action in order to honor my emotion in terms of the tools? Everything that is linked to the emotional body is around frequency and vibration. Emotion is energy in motion. So we're looking at any form of exercise, any form of meditation, connection with nature, music. Things that allow you to be with yourself, but also to release the emotional surplus in a way.
Justine Reichman: Super interesting. I'm sitting here thinking about it, how and where I fit in because we always think about it. The people around us, how does this fit in? And how can it help? I go back because we're talking about folks and being a resource for business. I'm wondering if you might be able to share one or two stories. You don't have to name any names. But how has this positively impacted somebody in their journey to build a business?
“Clarity is knowing how you function best, but also what you want and how you're going to go about it.” —Marika Messager
Marika Messager: The impact is massive. When we work with individuals, our model around conscious leadership stands firmly on three pillars which are clarity, presence and creation. So clarity is self awareness. It's knowing the self, knowing how you function best, what are your triggers, what are your patterns, but also what you want, and how you're going to go about it. And presence is linked to emotional mastery, emotional regulation, emotional agility. So of course, it's a lot about emotional intelligence, but how can I show up with a presence that is going to be the presence that I need and the best presence I can have. And then creation involves strategic intelligence, intuitive intelligence, systemic intelligence. It's really the place where we execute what we know to be true with the appropriate emotional presence. So those three pillars are crucial. They should all have the same value. We should spend a third of our time on each pillar, but most people spend most of their time in the creation mode. So there is a lot of doing, and there is not much reflection, or you just vision in a way. And so when individuals, especially founders, entrepreneurs start to understand that. They start to have the ability to be much clearer in the steps that they have to take in their business. Making the right choice at the right time as an entrepreneur is a key to success. I'm sure all of us, as entrepreneurs have fallen for the magic Island, or I'm gonna do this and it's gonna work out, realize that it's not the right thing to do.
This kind of preparation to get into clarity, what's my intention? Why am I doing that? What's the outcome? What are the steps that I need to take? What do I need to level up within myself in order to be able to become the person I need to be for my creation, to be a success. So that has a huge impact in the clarity, but also in regulating ourselves. If you are subject to moods that evolve throughout the day, your work is going to suffer from it. So the more we can master our energy, the more we can master our focus and our performance. And also, it makes us much more efficient when we are with other individuals, when we have to make a deal, or negotiate, or interact with clients and prospects, we have to know how to control our energy. Have this intuitive intelligence that allows us to read the energy of other people so we can adapt, we can pivot.
Justine Reichman: I think that's really interesting. And I think about the impact of one, two energy on somebody else. Whether it's enthusiasm, whether it's hate, whether it's shame. All those things impact people. So for example, if I'm overly enthusiastic and somebody's like, wow, that's a lot of energy. You're saying something, or you're frustrated and it's not at them, but we're frustrated with whatever's going on at the moment, I'm wondering consciously what is the best way to address that so you have the least impact on somebody else. Because when you're with people, when you're with your team and you're getting frustrated, you want to be mindful of how you communicate that frustration, et cetera. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that?
Marika Messager: It's a great question because energy can be felt. If your boss is angry, you might not say anything, but you will feel it. The more we level up within our own business or within an organization, the more we have to have this ability to regulate ourselves so that we can come back to center. I talk a lot about emotional neutrality, which is coming back to that place of zero point where we can actually think properly. It's very important to stop thinking and putting some time, effort, energy and money in that capacity for self regulation. Emotional intelligence is something that we can teach, but it's more than anything, something that needs to be practiced. So whenever you're feeling a negative emotion, the first thing to do is to take a step back and acknowledge that you are feeling a negative emotion, and to start to regulate your physical body because our physiology is going to reflect what we are feeling.
So when we are scared or when we feel under attack, we go into those fight or flight modes. Our heart rate is going to be faster, some parts of our brain are gonna be less flooded with blood. We might have sweaty palms, we might shake all of those things. So all of these are indicators that something is happening emotionally. And we can use our physical body to start regulating ourselves in the short term, which is breathing. Breath is free. Breath is always available, and breath works. Just taking three long breaths and recognising that, I am emotionally triggered. Okay, I pause. And the second thing I say very often is don't say anything, don't do anything until you come back to that place of emotional centeredness. Because most likely, if you say or do anything, it's gonna be emotionally charged. And it's not gonna be shared in the best way possible so it will potentially create more emotional drama. It will potentially escalate or will create misunderstandings, and it may trigger other people into defense mechanisms. So this is the first place to start. Pause, breathe and do your emotional work so that when you write that email, or when you have a conversation, you can do it from a place of emotional centeredness.
Justine Reichman: I think that's a really useful tool for a lot of people. I know myself, I always take a minute, or I write the email, draft it and then wait, and then put a softer touch on it, and reestablish the relationship and try to connect. Because I know that I can send this right now. If I write it right now, I'll be upset. Or I'm just gonna be very curt. But go to the flip side, you can see something and it's amazing. And you have a lot of energy that comes from this. And somebody's like, why are you freaking out? You know what I mean? That's their response. How do you deal with that from a conscious place? Because one person has joy whether it's about a new business. Or a great idea you just came up with and somebody's like, they're thinking that you're freaking out. But really, you had that aha moment or something.
Marika Messager: It's this kind of judgment of being too much by other people. And conscious leadership, one of the foundations of philosophy is really to get to a place where you know yourself, what does it mean to know yourself? It also means that I accept myself. So the things that I don't really like, I can choose to change them, or I can choose to accept them. And the more we do this, well, the more we get to a place of self acceptance and self love. And actually, even if I'm full of joy, and full of enthusiasm, and full of excitement, I decide that I choose to accept and love myself for being that person because I think it's fantastic to actually display them. I'm just gonna own it. Some people are uncomfortable by it, that's their problem. That's not mine.
Justine Reichman: Oftentimes, people get enthusiastic, oh, my God, I figured it out, or whatever. And then there's this opposing viewpoint that just makes the individual feel like they should go inwards, or they shouldn't have. They made a mistake. I'm always trying to cultivate a place where you can say anything because I want people to be able to speak up and feel free about that. But I remember 20 years ago, 30 years ago when I'm not quite as confident, or didn't have as much wisdom, etcetera that I was very scared to raise my hand, so to speak, or share my thing because it was going to be wrong. I think about this in terms of people building businesses, and having young people and being able to cultivate in a place where they can come in, feel safe, share what they have because they have a different perspective, and not feel ashamed about it. I wouldn't want anybody to lose their enthusiasm for it equally, even if it's not something we choose. It doesn't matter.
Marika Messager: Part of researching consciousness and implementing that into organization is also researching on the topics of diversity, equity and inclusion. How do we create a successful inclusive culture? And how do we fail? What's the power of unlocking the power? How do we unlock the power of diversity? And clearly, if we are not welcoming everybody's identity and emotions the way they are, and we want everybody to be the same and to level everybody, we are not going to benefit from the great opportunities of inclusion, which is that different perspective that creates collaboration, co-creation innovation. It's very important to care about data. One of the things that we love about the young generation is that they have energy. They can get enthusiastic about things. So it's really about welcoming all of that. Of course, we need some systems, some processes and some tools. There is a framework, and there is some code in a way. But the idea really is to accept people as they are, and to welcome their strengths and help them amplify them to work on their weaknesses. But on to the other means for me is not something that I will want to reduce.
Justine Reichman: Yeah, we agree. And I think about your point about being culturally, I want to say competent or culturally aware. If you live in New York, and you live in Singapore, our cultures are different. The way that we do business is different. Even from New York to California, it's very different. And I think it's really interesting how our energy has to shift accordingly to be able to connect with those on that level. I think it's very conscious that you're doing that. So I think that what you're saying really resonates with me, and I hope that it also equally resonates with our listeners and viewers today. Because if we've sparked a little interest in people and how they're building their businesses, and how they can look inward, I think that if they find as much interest as I did, there's a lot to learn, there's a lot of ways to grow. And I think that it's only going to improve ourselves professionally and personally. So I love that you're doing this research, and I love learning more about this. I can't wait to continue this conversation another day. I'm so grateful that you were able to join so we could provide this resource for our guests and our community. And it's saying that if our community, if somebody from the community, somebody listening, somebody watching wanted to learn more, or get in touch, what would be the best way?
Marika Messager: You can find us on our website, consciousleadership.org, where you have a lot of complementary resources. There is a free masterclass and free meditations. We send a CLO digest every month, which is full of advice and valuable content. You can sign up for that. You can also reach out to us. We have a contact form. So if you'd like to know more, have a conversation. Of course, it's a business. But more than anything, it's a community, and it's a movement. Feel free to connect with us. You can also find us on Instagram and LinkedIn, and also in those two places which are loads of content. So, yeah, a lot for you. If you want to know more, there is a lot out there that we provide. We are always very happy to have conversations with people who are interested.
Justine Reichman: We'll make sure to include all of that in the show notes for folks, Instagram, LinkedIn. Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your research and insight, what you're working on a personal level. I can't wait to learn more.
Marika Messager: Thank you, Justine. It was a pleasure.
Justine Reichman: Likewise.
