S9 Ep39: The Entrepreneur’s Plate: Reimagining Food’s Potential for Sustainability with Ashwin Cheriyan
“You can over engineer things like a business plan. I think there's no substitute for going out and just trying things— that's the best and fastest way you can learn.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
Episode Description:
“You can over engineer things like a business plan. I think there's no substitute for going out and just trying things— that's the best and fastest way you can learn.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
Modern life often makes it hard to balance convenience, health, and sustainability, leaving many searching for better options.
Ashwin Cheriyan, Thistle’s co-founder and CEO, is a former corporate lawyer turned passionate innovator, dedicated to bringing health and sustainability to everyone’s table. Ashwin’s work focuses on proving that eating delicious, wholesome, and planet-friendly meals can be both effortless and satisfying
Tune in as Justine interviews Ash about how about Thistle's remarkable journey from a passion project to a mission-driven food company, exploring how they blend health, sustainability, entrepreneurial resilience, and innovative meal delivery to create positive change for individuals and the planet.
Connect with Ashwin:
Ashwin Cheriyan is an entrepreneur, recovering corporate lawyer, and a mediocre surfer. He is currently the co-founder and CEO of Thistle, a Bay-area-based modern, tech-enabled, organic food and nutrition company. He was also the co-founder of WeGoFair, a social enterprise providing ratings for hotels and restaurants reflecting their performance on social and environmental issues.
Prior to Thistle and WeGoFair, he spent 4 years in New York as an M&A associate at Simpson Thacher & Bartlett, where he worked alongside senior management and cross-functional deal teams in collective transactions valued at over $100 billion. He received his A.B. in Economics from Brown University and his JD from The University of Texas School of Law.
Outside of Thistle, he spends his energy working with, advising, and investing in startups, mountain biking throughout Marin County, suiting up in neoprene to surf the waves of Bolinas, and enjoying the abundant culinary delights the Bay Area has to offer.
Episode Highlights:
02:05 Building a Heath and Sustainability-Driven Biz
15:44 Challenges and Growth of Thistle
27:46 Thoughts Before Seeking Venture Financing
31:52 The Importance of Passion and Alignment
36:05 The Broader Impact of Collective Action
39:44 From Skeptical Partners to Loyal Customers
Tweets:
Struggling to make healthy eating effortless? The solution lies in blending convenience with sustainability. Tune in as @jreichman and @ThistleCo CEO, Ashwin Cheriyan share how to make sustainable eating the easiest choice yet. #podcast #entrepreneurship #socialgood #inspiration #impactmatters #NextGenChef #EssentialIngredients #Season9 #Thistle #sustainablechoices #wholesomemeals #healthyandconvenient #planetfriendly #mindfulmeals
Inspirational Quotes:
03::41 “Diet plays a disproportionately larger role in those outcomes relative to exercise.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
04:15 “The most sustainable diet from an environmental scientist standpoint, was just to eat more plants.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
08:39 “There's one other key aspect, which I think is absolutely critical when it comes to helping people take that next step: having it be as judgment-free as possible.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
10:22 “there's no right solution for everyone. You got to do what you know works for you.”—Justine Reichman
10:46 “We look at these diets and these lifestyles that are for the general public, and we don't take them for ourselves, it's a lot harder.” —Justine Reichman
15:35 “that comes with education, and I think that comes with awareness, and that also comes with people understanding their own bodies, to know what they want to look for.” —Justine Reichman
19:34 “The people piece has been one of the most challenging, but also the most rewarding aspect.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
23:32 “entrepreneurship is a very long project, right? That you just keep pivoting and changing as you see things change and move.” —Justine Reichman
23:49 “If you're not deeply passionate about the why you're doing this in the first place, and if that's not meaningful every single day, you'll 100% quit.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
24:07 “If you can imbue the rest of your team with that sense of ownership and care, then they're going to stay longer, and they're going to create better products.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
28:21 “The more you can show and the more you can build, it gives people confidence that there's something real.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
29:58 “The fear of disappointing not just ourselves but all the people that believed in us and joined us on our journey, that's a tremendous motivator to get up look in the mirror and say, ‘Today is not the day I quit’.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
30:44 “You can over engineer things like a business plan. I think there's no substitute for going out and just trying things— that's the best and fastest way you can learn.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
35:10 “One of the best things that you can perhaps do when you feel like you can't figure it out is just survive, because the world changes.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
38:26 “We can't be everything to everyone. We have to just be who we are for what we are.” —Justine Reichman
Transcription:
Justine Reichman: Well, for those folks that are joining us today on the Essential Ingredients Podcast, I'm so happy to have you here with us. We have Ash Cheriyan, and he is the Co Founder of Thistle. I am so excited to bring you both, Ash and his company, because it is the essence of what I try to do, to bring a platform so that people can share their inspiring stories to build better for you food businesses, and this is exactly what I love to talk about. So with that being said, Ash, for those not familiar with you or Thistle, maybe you can give them a brief intro?
Ashwin Cheriyan: Absolutely, Justine, thank you for having me. Excited to be here. Thistle has felt like it has existed for almost the entirety of my career. We've been around for 13 years. But a good place to start maybe is kind of how we decided to be on this journey in the first place. So in a prior life, I had gone to law school, and I was practicing mergers and acquisitions in a large firm in New York. And my Co Founder, who's my wife, we're a married team. We were married back in 2012. She had received her PhD from Princeton Environmental Science. She was working as a research scientist in New York at NYU. And I think the best way that I can describe those four years in New York as a lawyer was, if you boil it all down, I was in the business of making rich people slightly richer, and it didn't feel particularly great from a purpose standpoint. It was awesome from a financial and compensation standpoint, but it felt like there was this big gap in my life in terms of, am I doing something with the vast majority of my time every single day that meant something to me and was meaningful? And so for about two years, I started to explore, what are the areas that I felt most passionate about? And one area for me in particular was health. And specifically, what is the relationship between what we put in our body three times a day and both short, medium and long term health outcomes? And the reason that was important is I come from a family of physicians.
My parents are doctors. My brother's a doctor. And in fact, if you go to my great grandmother who lived to be 103 at the time of her death, we lost track of around 45 doctors that were her direct descendants. It's almost like she spawned a hospital, which is why she had lived so long. There's some good genes on that side, because my grandmother who's still alive is now 94. Her sister, my grandma's sister is 96. It's like there's a lot of longevity. But I grew up having this conversation with my parents, and it would go something like this, and they'd have this over and over again. Patients will come in suffering from, call it the 10 most common reasons why someone in this country would ultimately get sick and perhaps die. Heart disease kills one in three people every single year. Quickly followed by things like obesity, hypertension, stroke, diabetes, certain forms of stroke and cancer, all of which are heavily correlated to diet and exercise. And the frustrating thing for a physician was that the patient would come in. They get some medicine, but my parents would say, you have to make a change in your lifestyle. And without fail, that person would come back for their follow up, take the medicine, and do nothing to change. And that's because it's really hard. And fast forward from back in the 90s to call it 10 years ago when Thistle was in his infancy. The only difference was we now know that diet plays a disproportionately larger role in those outcomes relative to exercise.
“The most sustainable diet from an environmental scientist standpoint, was just to eat more plants.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
And at the same time, my wife Shiri was working as a research scientist looking at the impact of everything from air pollution, on global crop yields, to policies that influence what people and the choices they make when it comes to food systems, and found that most climate scientists weren't talking about one of the biggest drivers of negative impact on sustainability, which is animal agriculture and the choices that every single person makes in terms of what we want to consume. And funny enough, the most sustainable diet from an environmental scientist standpoint was just to eat more plants. Vegetarian, vegan, but mostly plant based. And then similarly from a healthcare standpoint, funny enough, the most conducive diet to both short and long term health was eating plant based. And so these twin generational problems pointed to one solution. And so when we were talking about, what do we want to do with our lives together?
We made two decisions. One, we knew that we wanted to work together. Two, we thought, my God, if it all pointed to this one choice that we make every single day, is there a service that makes it insanely easy for people to access food that checks all of the boxes when it comes to health and planetary health as well, but didn't sacrifice the thing that we knew was most important in any food product, which is taste. And so that was the kernel of the idea upon which we formed Thistle. Now, we had no prior food experience. We had no logistics experience. We had no manufacturing experience, but what we did have was what I think is the most important quality for any entrepreneur to have, which is just to be naive about how hard it is. And so we dove in and started from just creating great meals delivered to a few neighborhoods in San Francisco, which quickly expanded to the entire Bay Area, then LA, and then major cities on the West Coast like Phoenix, Portland, San Diego. And now, today, we cover every major city on the West Coast. And two years ago, launched on the East Coast. And Thistle delivers incredibly delicious plant based meals on a subscription basis to customers to their doorstep on a subscription basis. And the goal is to help people invest in their long term health and the health of the planet, and make it just as simple as possible. So that's our story in a nutshell.
Justine Reichman: You check all the boxes for me. It's about health, it's about wellness, it's about the planet. I mean, really, you haven't missed anything, right? Because without health and the planet, what do we have?
Ashwin Cheriyan: That's right. I think humans are funny creatures, and that all the stuff that we talk about like, it's not the case that people don't know about it. It's just the change in behavior is just hard, and it's hard for all really good reasons, right? Take food for example. The choices people make are not just related to the most practical and functional reasons. Food is deeply embedded in terms of their memories and their culture, and how they grew up. And making a change when it comes to what you've been embedded in your own DNA for so long is insanely difficult. But I think what we found is people that actually make that change, they're shocked how quickly they're able to see the positive benefits in their own lives, and then they start seeing, learning about the positive impact when a group of people start making that change when it comes to the planet. It feels like it's an absolute win and necessary if we're going to make progress along these two fronts.
Justine Reichman: I couldn't agree more. I think that a lot of this comes down to education and making the information accessible at all levels, right? So leveling the playing field. You have some entrepreneurs that go to Harvard Business School and come up with the idea while they're at HBS, and they've got all this access and information. Doesn't mean that there's nothing wrong with that. That's great, but there's lots of people out in the world that don't go through that, and come from passion, and come from experience, and come from another place, and want to build this business. And I think that sometimes, just providing that story or that access to the information about the change that you can make and have, whether it's impacting people's health, wellness or the planet, or whatever may interest somebody else. It could be how beauty is impacted by food or something like that, which is a series we just did. There's so many ways that this impacts people, but I think the idea is that we're now seeing a trend towards impact driven businesses, and everyone should have access to understand what that means. The impact they can have and be inspired from all these different stories. I mean, your story in itself is amazing and inspiring, right? Well, here you were an attorney in New York making money, but what really drove you was creating something that was going to have a positive impact on the world.
“There's one other key aspect, which I think is absolutely critical when it comes to helping people take that next step: having it be as judgment-free as possible.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
Ashwin Cheriyan: I couldn't agree with you more. I think there's one other key aspect, which I think is absolutely critical when it comes to helping people take that next step is having it be as judgment free as possible. I think there's so many people that, or so many approaches on that education where intentionally or not, it just makes people feel bad about their choices. And then that kind of negative feeling translates into man, I feel like I'm being judged for my choices doesn't actually have the impact of getting people to do the thing you want them to do. It actually causes them to be defensive and then actually continue to keep the status quo. And I think the one thing that we found is doing that educational piece, and just helping people realize it's not about all or nothing, and making this giant change is all of these baby steps matter, right? So take plant based, for example. Going plant based for one meal out of the week is letting people know that in itself can have a huge impact if a large enough cohort of people do that. And by the way, just doing that is something that you should be proud of. And then how do you help people take that first step, and the next baby step, and the next baby step. And then before you know it, the combination of information and support from companies and other brands that are doing the same is funny enough. Humans ultimately end up making a huge amount of change over not that long of a period if done well.
“We look at these diets and these lifestyles that are for the general public, and we don't take them for ourselves, it's a lot harder.” —Justine Reichman
Justine Reichman: I also think so many people have all these different diets that they're looking at and how to eat well, and how much protein you should have. And so there's a lot of confusion, and I think it's really important to break down that confusion for people. And it's understood, there's no right solution for everyone. There's the right one for you and the wrong one for you, but you can't have the right one for the wrong person. That's absolutely right. You got to do what works for you. And if you break it down and you say, okay, well, I need this much protein, and then realize what you need, you have the ability to take one small step to make that possible. But I think because we look at these diets and these lifestyles that are for the general public, and we don't take them for ourselves, it's a lot harder. And people are trying to be so perfect. To your point where one small change, we can't make all of them. It's not me who is perfect. I just want to have my little niche in the world where I create a platform to give people the opportunity to share their stories, to inspire others, to create change and more awareness, and make more informed choices. That's what I've carved out for myself.
I think that if people can do the same with themselves, whether I try to eat more plants and less meat, and I love meat and fish, but I also realize that I don't need as much to eat it. I really do enjoy the vegetables. And by exploring different recipes, let's go back to what you said about culture, right? Culturally speaking, there's a lot of food that when people go to remake them, it's challenging. Because years ago, we made them in such unhealthy ways. I could talk about the Jewish foods that have so much dairy in them, and eggs, and pounds of sugar, and I look forward to it. I'm not going to say I don't. But in this day and age, I've also tried to recreate them in the version 2.0 or 3.0 version that allows us to make them in a better for you way, but still be able to honor that culture that is so meaningful to me.
Ashwin Cheriyan: I think that goes back to that original point, which is ultimately that food should be a celebration and not a sacrifice, right? And I think that the point you're illustrating, which is awesome, I think that there's this misconception that there's no way to have it be a celebration without all of the stuff that is bad for you. And in fact, I think some of the most, I actually feel like people that really embrace cooking in an entirely vegan way as magicians in some ways. Because the stuff that they're able to create is phenomenal with such a more limited set of ingredients that you would not have expected. And ultimately, that comes out of what people care about. If it just tastes great, great. Then they're not gonna feel like they're missing something. And I think our job is just to do that?
Justine Reichman: Here's a question for you, and it's not really about this, per se. But when people came up with, what was it called, the Impossible Burger, right? Burger, but it's different. I'm a vegan. In my mind, I'm really curious. Why not just call it something else? Because I think there's a stigma when we talk about things and we're like, oh, this is the vegan burger, or this is the vegetarian burger. Why not make it amazing on its own? And then people just gravitate towards it. Maybe they don't want the meat.
Ashwin Cheriyan: Yeah, I think that's a great point. So I think there's obviously two potential polls there. One, obviously, they're trying to brand it as a thing that is easily recognizable. And so that's obviously why they're going after it. But there's a whole cohort of people that don't even want any association with it being meat. So our entire family is vegetarian. My daughter who's been vegetarian since birth, she won't eat it because she's like, I just don't like that. They're calling it meat, or burger. For her, there's a mental block the other way, right? So I'm totally with you that it's like that on some part. And it's interesting that you brought up the meat alternatives, because we have two tracks for our customers. One, that's entirely vegan. And one that includes a small amount of sustainably sourced animal protein, and we tried to see whether our customers would be receptive to the Impossible, or the Beyond, or kind of the meat alternatives. And it turns out like they were not interested. They didn't want the fake alternative products. They just wanted to have something that's great, that didn't necessarily have to be the thing that reminded them of the products that they were trying to not eat.
“That comes with education, and I think that comes with awareness, and that also comes with people understanding their own bodies, to know what they want to look for.” —Justine Reichman
Justine Reichman: And I also think to that point, consumers have gotten more educated over time. And if you look at the ingredient list on an Impossible Burger or whatever, and I'm not trying to pick on anybody. My point is it's not just what it is. It has all these other things in it, whether they're bad, and not everybody is comfortable with that. I like to know what my ingredients are when I go to Woodlands, which is my local store. Which obviously, I go to buy my hemp milk. I don't want the ones with all the gums. I want the one that's just oats, water and a little salt. Or I want other nut milk, because I drink hemp milk, and I want just hemp seeds and water, and whatever. My point is that being transparent is really important to me. And so anytime I have something where I don't know the ingredients or there's added sugar, I'm not that excited about it. But I think that comes with education, and I think that comes with awareness, and that also comes with people understanding their own bodies to know what they want to look for. So when people say vegan to me, I have no objection to how it's going to taste, but I have an issue around nuts. So my point is, you have all these amazing things, and there's different ways to do it for different people's tolerances and bodies. And I love the fact that you've created a globally inspired meal kit that allows people to touch into their own cultures at times, depending on what it was. But also have a healthy option even if they're vegan or they want a little bit of protein, and there's no stigma around it. You've sourced really good ingredients all around, and it doesn't hurt, by the way, that maybe you partner with some chefs that I might really like, am I right? Like Tom Colicchio right down the block from where I grew up?
Ashwin Cheriyan: That's right. Tom, by the way, is an advisor. He's awesome. And it's funny. Because I think on first glance, he's not the most obvious person that would potentially collaborate with a brand like this. Many people actually know him to be a chef that really leaned into having a meat centric set of offerings, right? But the funny thing is when you get to know him, that's a side that he appreciates, but I also know the other side, which is, I want to make sure that I am helping people invest in meals that aren't like the thing that I'm most known for. And in some ways, he's working with someone like this is like, how I atone in his way for what he did. But my own life isn't, I'm not eating it in my restaurants every single day. That's not what I eat for every single meal. That is a thing that I enjoy every once in a while. And again, his point was, our diets should be incredibly varied. We should absolutely know where the things that we're eating and putting our bodies are, where they come from, what it does, what it means like, does it have to be there? Does it not? And then challenge ourselves too. And it doesn't make sense for you to specifically try something else. And I think Tom has done a really great job in terms of all the businesses that he supports and being very varied. We've loved working with them.
Justine Reichman: So I'm curious, you've been around for about 13 years now, right? You started off very small. As you said, going to a couple different places. But what were some of the greatest challenges you had? You came up with this idea when you were not in the field, and you wanted to do something that was better for you. So what was the greatest challenge as it relates to building a better for you food business?
Ashwin Cheriyan: That's a great question. 13 years, I have a lot of scar tissue from building this business. So Thistle, we're vertically integrated. So what that means is that we do all of our sourcing, design, cooking, plating, manufacturing for all of our products, other than our coal prostitutes, which we co manufacture within our facilities. And so we have one on the West Coast, one on the East Coast. And not only that we actually own our own distribution and delivery systems as well. So those are our employees that are taking the meals to the doorsteps of our customers. So on one hand, we're building a consumer facing brand which is hard enough. Then we're building a manufacturing business in food which is hard, and then we have a logistics business that is trying to take perishable prepared meals to customers in food safe, high quality multiple times a week over and over again. And each of those things can be standalone businesses. And we said, why don't we just all do it all together? So the learning curve was incredibly difficult. Everything from, how do we source a facility? How do you build it out to do what you need to do? How do you design a menu that your customers want, but doesn't create this insane amount of capabilities? How do you hire great people? And I think the people piece, I think, has been one of the most challenging, but also the most rewarding aspects of this.
Because today, across all of our teams, all of our manufacturing centers, our drivers, there's almost a thousand people that work at this. And in traditional manufacturing, hourly employees aren't treated particularly well. They're viewed as replaceable. They're viewed as something that is, we don't need to invest time and effort because folks that are working these jobs aren't necessarily trying to pick up new skills or be ambitious, and nothing can be further from the truth. And what we found is that if you give people the exact same things that just feel absolutely normal for a job, which is a manager that respects him, mentorship and really understanding, what is it that you're trying to work towards in your career? Can we actually help you understand why the things you're doing are important from a customer standpoint? And then embolden and empower you with choice and creativity, not necessarily saying these are the 100 things you absolutely have to do, but giving them a sense of, this is why it's important to have this type of quality and this outcome for the customer. And if you really buy into that, we're going to give you the freedom to make the 500 small decisions every single day that allow you to create a great product. If you can build that culture, then ultimately, that is what results in a great product when it comes to, candidly, any industry, but in our world. And I think that perhaps what we did best was invest heavily there first, and continue to fight for that. Because one of the reasons why Thistle exists, and many of our competitors that perhaps started when we did and didn't is because we separated ourselves based on the quality of our product. And that was entirely because of great folks on the line that helped us create these meals, deliver them, and make sure the customer experience was great.
And so again, doing that in one facility was hard. Doing that in two facilities was even harder. Two years after we launched the business, Shiri, my co-founder, got pregnant with our first child. She was born in 2015. I took one day off. Came back to work. She took two weeks off. I remember our office was in our manufacturing facility. And my office, I literally mean that there was a manufacturing cold room was here, and in the warehouse area where some desks. I set up behind the walk in refrigerator, there was a three foot space between the wall and the walk in refrigerator. And I put in two of those kinds of screen doors on, like those folding screen doors on either side, and that's where Shiri would pump breast milk for our daughter. I tell people, I'm like, if you're not willing to do that, then perhaps the entrepreneur journey is not for you.
Justine Reichman: That's why we have people in different roles all over the world. But the point that I always really want to drive home is that there's all different kinds of entrepreneurs. I've said this a zillion times, but I think about living in a big city, and I think about every cab driver who literally has their own business. That Medallion is a business. The person that has a bodega on the corner is a business owner. So they don't all have the same set of experiences or access. But again, that's what drove me to create this podcast so we can level the playing field, and people can see what you literally weren't. You had another job. You're trying to come up with something. You're trying to make an impact in the world. And if you follow that, you can do it. It's possible. And you learn on the fly. I mean, here, you are talking about three different businesses. Which one did you start first? Was it the manufacturer, or were they all at the same time?
Ashwin Cheriyan: Manufacturing. And it was actually all around the same time. We kind of smashed it all together.
Justine Reichman: It's like a job, MBA, right? And to me, I'm best at projects. I think entrepreneurship is a very long project, right? That you just keep pivoting and changing as you see things change and move, whether it's environment or consumer driven.
“If you're not deeply passionate about the why you're doing this in the first place, and if that's not meaningful every single day, you'll 100% quit.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
Ashwin Cheriyan: And I think that the key in that journey, which gets back to maybe the origin story for this is, if you're not deeply passionate about why you're doing this in the first place, and if that's not meaningful every single day, you'll 100% quit. It is without fail. That's going to happen because it's so difficult day in and day out. And I think the second piece is, if you can imbue the rest of your team with that sense of ownership and care, then they're going to stay longer, and they're going to create better products. And that's kind of the job. We did not hire people that had the experience to do any of this stuff. Candidly, we hired great people that believed in why we should exist, and that resulted in them putting in the extra hours and time to just figure it out with us.
Justine Reichman: So when you kicked this off 13 years ago, and you and your wife decided to go off and build Thistle, did you do it in the traditional sense of, let me do a business plan, and then I'm gonna go raise money. Did you say, let me just bootstrap that? Let's bootstrap this. Let's figure this out together. What was the initial idea, and then how did it change?
Ashwin Cheriyan: Yeah. So I think the initial idea on day one was, can we just create a great product in food people liked? So the first thing that we tried was, let's do a line of cold press juices. And so we had no place to manufacture it. And so what we did was, it sounds kind of crazy, but we walked around food facilities in the East Bay just what we thought were places where people were manufacturing things. Knocked on doors, and found someone that was making a juice product. It's called a shrub. It's basically a cocktail mixer with sugar and vinegar. And we realized that actually, they have the right equipment we needed to make cold pressed juices. So we said, hey, you were operating within the hours of 6:00 am and 6:00 pm, can we sublet your facility from 6:.00 pm to 6:00 am worth the graveyard shift, and that'll give you some extra income, and allow us to have an asset light way of getting a product to market? And that was how we got our first product out. So one, we worked the graveyard shift. And then we went to restaurants in San Francisco that were not open for lunch and said, hey, you have this space that's not activated during the day. Can we set up a pop up location to sell our juices during the daytime when you're not open? That'll bring awareness to you for people walking by. We'll give you a share of our profit, but you know that'll allow us to get a product to market. That's how we literally had our first set of sales.
Justine Reichman: Well, as you're doing that, why did you, or not pivot, but you decided to go intentionally, I imagine, to direct to consumers versus opening a store?
Ashwin Cheriyan: Yeah. I think we ultimately always wanted to build a business that was able to be scalable, right? And so physical stores, it's really hard because you have to get fixed assets. And by the way, there was a very clear playbook for building a franchise, or physical stores, or restaurants. We have no competitive edge there. But doing something that was direct to the consumer in a novel way seemed like something that no one had really figured out. So we said, why not us? And so where we quickly pivoted into food was people just loved these products that were bringing to market. People love the juices for us. Well, if they like these cold pressed juices, maybe we can come up with food that we would also want to eat ourselves, wished existed, and add that to the offering. And we did. People started buying those. And then we quickly transitioned from pop up locations into delivery. I worked as a delivery driver for the first year. Plus Shiri work dispatch. We put up a site that seemed like it was automated.It was a Squarespace site where people came in, pressed an order, they got a text notification, they could track, and none of it was automated. It was all of us doing manual work. Imagine seeing a Ferrari, but then opening the hood, it was like a hamster running inside. That's kind of what it was like. But we did that to, again, get proof of concept, validate that people actually liked it. You asked the question of, how do we fund it? We put our savings into it. We built up a cash reserve we weren't paying ourselves, and this terrifying thing was we saw all of our savings effectively go to zero. Raise a little bit of capital from friends and family, and then just build slowly along the way. And then ultimately in 2020, we took our first round of venture financing. We did a series. But by then, that was seven years into it. But I think the more you can show, and the more you can build gives people confidence that there's something real there.
Justine Reichman: And when you did take financing in the end, did that change anything for you? Did it change anything for the business and things that you were able to do when it was just you guys, and you didn't take in any money?
Ashwin Cheriyan: Yeah. There's obviously the positive in that capital allows you to do things like get a proper manufacturing facility. So instead of having to lease shared space, for example, we were able to finally get our first facility with our own equipment, which was great. So you end up having more resources. But then the flip side is now you have this pressure to go deliver upon the promise upon which you raise capital. Obviously, people aren't just giving you the money out of the goodness of their heart. They clearly care about your purpose. But now, you have all of this pressure to make sure that you build this business and make forward progress so that you can continue to survive. And I think the scariest part of our business is every time our business grows, in the back of my head, you wake up in the morning and you're like, if this fails, now I'm disappointing this number of people. And then six months from that number is 25% larger. Those people are counting on us to put food on their table, to have earned a living. It's a terrifying thought.
Justine Reichman: That was what I thought when you told me that there were a thousand people. I was like, oh, my God, what a responsibility.
“The fear of disappointing not just ourselves but all the people that believed in us and joined us on our journey, that's a tremendous motivator to get up look in the mirror and say, ‘Today is not the day I quit’.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
Ashwin Cheriyan: Well, I view it as a privilege. Hopefully, we're good shepherds here of creating a company that people want to be at and enjoy. But yeah, it's terrifying. It's one thing to fail and have it just be the two of us, myself and Shiri. I'm like, you know what? That's great. We signed up for it. We knew what the risks were. But fear of disappointing not just ourselves, but all the people that believed in us and joined us on our journey, that's a tremendous motivator to get up, look in the mirror and say, today is not the day I quit.
Justine Reichman: Yeah, totally. Wow. So you guys have come a long way. So what would you share with other founders that are on this journey, from any mistakes or terms that may look at today you do differently? I mean, mistakes are mistakes, and I think mistakes are part of the journey so I don't want to look at them as a negative thing. But what things did you experience that maybe now that you experienced them, you could offer some sage advice to those folks so that they may be a little bit more aware or informed?
Ashwin Cheriyan: Well, going back to your original question on whether we had a business plan, I think you can over engineer things like a business plan. I think there's no substitute for just going out and just trying things. That's the best, fastest way you can learn. Because whatever you assume to be the case is almost certainly going to be wrong. So that's one. So just focus on just getting out, and in the most asset light way. And as fast as possible, get a proof of concept out, even if you're embarrassed by it. Believe me, that is a blessing because you'll get real customer feedback, and then you'll improve, and perhaps prevent yourself from making a mistake if you had over-thought it. I think the second piece, I would not try to engineer something solely for the purpose of, I'm doing this so I can go raise some money. I think venture is not for everyone.
And in fact, as great as it can feel to raise it around a capital and get articles and Tech Crunch, or whatever it is. You are not taking on a ton more pressure, and there's a lot more pressure and weight that's going to come from that that might otherwise have caused a good business to not work out. Because the returns and expectations for a venture backed business are very different from a business that otherwise may have done well by growing a little bit slower, more slowly. So I think deeply about the type of business that you want to run. And three, I think I will try to do it as efficiently as possible. If you can get it to profitability quickly, you control your whole destiny. And in fact, the reason Thistle was able to get to 2020 without taking outside capital is we were incredibly capital efficient, and we tried to build this business in a way that, if we never raised capital, we could survive. And I think that's the piece that probably is the mentality you should go into. And if the opportunity comes in where it truly makes sense to have capital be the engine for furthering growth in a way that otherwise would not be able to happen, then take it.
Justine Reichman: There's so much wisdom in what you just said. And I think a lot of times, I know myself as an entrepreneur, I can be very scrappy. And in the beginning of things, you just want to get stuff done, and you're curious. I think that that's really something to lean into, because that's what's going to get you going. That's what's going to get you to learn more, to make better choices, to explore and see if what you're doing is right. And think what you really pigeon hole ourselves. And we say, this is exactly what I'm going to do, and I'm not going to go off course. We lose sight that it's not just about what we want or what we think. It's about what everybody else thinks. It's really important, because that's what's going to get the consumers.
Ashwin Cheriyan: That's right. But again, to your point, I think people put up mental blocks in terms of what they truly believe is possible. I think that when you come in and you see a wall in front of you, I actually think most of the time, the answer isn't, oh, I need more money or more resources to figure a way through this wall. Someone once said, the fastest way to get a startup to perform a miracle is tell them they're running out of time and money, because people are insanely capable.By the way, there's a probable way over that wall, under that wall, through it. The wall probably doesn't exist. You tell people, I know that. You say, one way we can do it is by getting more money and resources, but we don't have that. But you still have to go figure it out. It is amazing what I've seen people do with scrap, and determination, and creativity in terms of getting to the same result without what was initially perceived to be. It's going to require a ton of resources, or help, or money, or etcetera. And I think most things are probably like that.
Justine Reichman: Do you think that that's in someone's DNA as an entrepreneur? Because I feel like I'm totally on board with what you're saying. And I see that. I don't look at things necessarily as that's a problem. I look at it like, okay, well, we just have to change the way we're thinking, or how we're going to get there, which is a different narrative. And I know that some people are very black and white, some people are right brain, left brain. And I think when you come to entrepreneurs, I think it's a unique set of skills. And it's the ability to flourish in the unknown, to be curious, to be scrappy, to know when it's time to pivot, have an open idea about how you're going to get there, and know that it may change. Time change, the planet changes, health changes, education changes. We learn different things.
“One of the best things that you can perhaps do when you feel like you can't figure it out is just survive, because the world changes.” —Ashwin Cheriyan
Ashwin Cheriyan: By the way, I believe so much in what you said. One of the things I tell people is one of the best things that you can perhaps do when you feel like you can't figure it out is just survive, because the world changes. I can't figure this out because it's going to require an engineer with talent or skills to go do it. Well, if you survived, if someone thought that a year ago and now AI is completely changing, what people without those skills can do? The world will change. So the single biggest thing you can do is not give up and just survive. And that's proven over a 12, 13 year period. I've seen that be proven out time and time again. So yes, I think that entrepreneurs, perhaps the biggest thing is they're okay with uncertainty. They're okay knowing that I haven't figured it all out, but I'm still gonna take a step forward into that unknown, because I'm gonna believe that either I or my team will figure it out. And that's probably the thing that almost every entrepreneur shares.
Justine Reichman: Yeah, I share that with you. To me, that's the way it is, and I'll figure it out. So I do have a question for you that's a little outside of this, but also talks to the values that we were talking about, about the planet and etcetera, and what role sustainability plays for you. I saw a little bit about it on your website, but I just wanted to dig in a little bit deeper and hear what role that plays for you.
Ashwin Cheriyan: Our mission has two prongs. One, how do we help people get and stay healthy via our food? But the second part of it, which is built directly into our mission is, how do we help people make those same choices that benefit the planet/ And so for us, every decision that Thistle makes has to move the ball forward in not just one, but both of those areas. And for us, that came very directly into the core product that we are offering our customers. And a good example is, yes, we believe that people in general should be reducing their demand for animals. And animal agriculture can be incredibly destructive from a planetary standpoint. But again, we realize that there's complexity. Not everyone can be vegetarian or vegan, but there's some choices that are incredibly important. So beef, for example, is something that is incredibly destructive. It's actually far more planet resource driven than almost any other animal product, and that's not something that we actually serve in any of our meals. That was a tough choice for us because our customers want things that are high in protein, and they want clean ingredients, but that did not check the planet's sustainability box for us.
And so I think it's actually really important that if that's something that's a clearly stated value, that means that our team members have joined you on your journey because that's an important value for them. Their customers have signed on with you because it's an important value for them. Could we make more money if we are using that example, if we introduce beef as an option? Absolutely, we could. 100%, we could. But it would not be living up to our mission and our values, and things that we care about. And I think the best thing about having my co-founder, Shir, have that her passion or background is that's how she keeps us honest. And by looking at it through those lenses, it can make sense on all of the other aspects of the business. But if you waver on that, then you lose your weight pretty quickly.
“We can't be everything to everyone. We have to just be who we are for what we are.” —Justine Reichman
Justine Reichman: Yeah, I could not agree more. And I think that building sustainability into it in a way that's meaningful to you, but also attainable, because we can't be everything to everyone. We have to just be who we are for what we are. And as long as we make our objectives clear, because I think sometimes, we get overwhelmed thinking that we have to do everything. And it's overwhelming and scary, and it feels like you're just gonna fail. Because you are gonna fail, if that's your expectation, but if you change your expectation and you say, okay, I just want to give people the opportunity to be healthier. And for us to not to create, to offer sustainable food that you're making a difference, and it's attainable.
Ashwin Cheriyan: That's right. And which is why I really love this platform that you're giving to brands, Justine. Because I think it's not just an individual, it's not just a company, it's a collection of brands that have shared values. And ultimately, by supporting those that make a small impact in aggregate across all of the brands and all the customers that ultimately support those brands, you can have a tremendous amount of impact. But ultimately, people have to know about it, learn about it, and have it come from a trusted source. And I think all of those partnerships are key and critical, and we're going to all collectively have the impact that we want to have.
Justine Reichman: Yeah, I agree. I'm glad to be on this journey with you, and I'm glad that you were willing to come on and share your story, your journey, your mission and those lessons that you've learned so that others in your shoes or down the road can make more informed choices for themselves and for what they're building. So inspiring, truly inspiring. And I gotta tell you, we had an order from you guys. They dropped off a lot of food, and it was great. With everything I have, my partner tries everything too, because I always like to get a little feedback and see that everything is great. I think he's even a harder candidate than I am. Whenever you buy something that's pre packaged or made, it's got to be really good. Otherwise, we can make it ourselves.
Ashwin Cheriyan: That's awesome. I love to hear stories of a customer writing in saying, I tried the product, but then my partner ended up actually being skeptical, and then ended up eating everything, and then being actually the biggest supporter. We've heard that so many times. And again, he just highlights what we talked about at the beginning of the conversation. People have a preconceived notion of what they expect out of a category, but I think it's our job in our respective categories to not just meet but see one of those. Because ultimately, that's the only reason why people will continue to support down the road. Because just doing it once doesn't make the difference, right?
Justine Reichman: It's true. I just want to tap on something. You and your wife started this, and you both had very different backgrounds. And when starting a business, that's really key, because you need to be able to do different things and lean into what you're good at, and then find those resources to help fill the gaps. And so this was a passion project, and something that you felt really strongly about, both for health and the planet. And I'm curious what role, because I don't think it's exactly what you do or exactly what your wife does. But nutrition, you had to come up with that in a meaningful way. So I'm curious, what was the resource for that? And how did you make sure that you're providing these really healthful meals?
Ashwin Cheriyan: Yeah. Well, that's where my background is in having a ton of family in the medical field. And doctors track doctors. So it was actually very, very easy. And that was actually probably the easiest part of this was having a trusted source of advisors to really make sure that we nailed the nutrition aspect of things. Because functionally, that's the piece where we had a lot of confidence going in, is that we had people that we could rely on to help guide us as we developed our own standard of nutrition. And those people helped connect us to others that would incorporate that into the design of the meals. And ultimately, we made sure that as we're thinking about every product that we bring to market, it has to check the sustainability box. It has to make sure that it checks the health box. And then the last one is obviously things like cost and pricing. You have to check all of those. It's hard to do, but we can't sacrifice on any of those.
Justine Reichman: Well, Ash, thank you so much for sharing your story with me today. I really enjoyed having you here. I loved your food. We even videotaped some of it that we'll throw on social. So for those folks that want to see what we got and what it looks like, we'll share that with you right before the episode goes live.
Ashwin Cheriyan: Justine, thanks so much for having me. This was awesome.
Justine Reichman: A little perk for those listeners that tuned into the whole videocast or podcast, Ash is going to give us a special discount code for our listeners and our community, and I'm so pleased. Ash, let us know. How do they get this? And what is it?
Ashwin Cheriyan: So for customers that are looking to try, you can use a promo code is ESSENTIAL40, 40% off your first order. Give us a try. Hope you love it, and then stay with us.
Justine Reichman: Awesome. Thanks so much. That is a big discount. Thank you for that. We'll make sure to share that, because we want as many people to get on board and try this so that they can see what an amazing product it is.
Ashwin Cheriyan: Amazing. I love it.
Justine Reichman: Anyway, I want to thank our guests for tuning in today. It's our family and our friends that tune in each week to continue to hear the stories and be inspired by these founders. So for those founders that are tuning in, or the guests tuning in that want to learn more about Thistle, what would be the best way for them to go about doing that?
Ashwin Cheriyan: Yeah, they can come learn about us on our website, www.thistle.co, or you can follow us on social, but we're here.
Justine Reichman: Awesome. Thanks so much. Thanks for tuning in today. Whether you watched it on video at YouTube, or you downloaded our podcast at Essential Ingredients, we're so happy that you tuned in. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram @justine.reichman, @essential.ingredients. Say tuned as we have a new episode every week that goes live on Tuesday.
